Author: Nusrat Javeed
Publication: www.jung.com.pk
Date: February 15, 2001
Defying his venom-spitting reputation,
Shiv Sena chief Bal Thackeray has proposed a "live and let live" policy
to Pakistan. "Our problems can only be addressed if the two countries realise
that "enough is enough and time has come to live and let live," Thackeray
told at his high-security residence.
Thackeray made every effort to look
like a man of peace and reason. He was rather candid to admit that Pakistan
and India face severe problems of mass-poverty. Millions of their citizens
are in desperate need of some access to better health, education and sustainable
income.
"But these problems can only be
addressed if the two countries realise that "enough is enough and time
has come to live and let live." Getting physical access to Bal Thackeray
these days is pretty cumbersome.
Throughout the four weeks, this
correspondent consumed in reaching him, many potential "conduits" were
just not willing to make an attempt even. Yet a journalist friend was willing
to take the risk. Expending source after source, the friend could eventually
reach Sanjay Nirupam.
As if for "the clearance-interview,"
Nirupam invited me to his office last Tuesday. Despite a lengthy meeting,
he hesitated committing a meeting with his leader. "Wait for my phone,"
was the only promise he made. And, he did phone, after one had lost any
hope of meeting the Shiv Sena leader. "Saheb (no follower of Bal Thackeray
use his name out of deference) is willing to meet us tomorrow at 12pm."
The interview was fixed for Saturday, a day before my flying off to Delhi.
Bal Thackeray lives at a relatively
comfortable middle class housing society in the east of Mumbai. But almost
miles before his ground-floor apartment, begin the security rings. The
main entrance to MAHADA housing society, has bunkers and combat-ready security
personnel sitting tense behind sand bags.
After identification checks and
counter-checks, comes the turn of thorough body search and vehicle inspection.
Then comes another barrier. No vehicle can go beyond that, even the one
which carried me along with no one else but Nirupam.
After walking and walking and passing
through the prying police posts, we eventually reached his residence. Bomb
disposal squad stands alert there. Even after passing a scanning door,
you have to get your body probed by hi-tech gadgets. That lets you in a
room, where many wait for a meeting with their leader. Then came a long
passage and a room where Thackeray meets his privileged visitors, after
getting down from his abode upstairs.
Within minutes of our settling there,
entered Thackeray. He is very much like his tele-image: the eye-contact
eluding shades, saffron dhoti-kameez and lockets, amulets and necklace
of sparkling diamonds. The Shiv Sena leader is surely appears too agile
for his age, 74-plus, both physically and mentally.
But the most surprising was his
calm. Not for once during our meeting, did he raise his voice. He would
visibly get amused with "provocative questions" and furnish the dismissive
answers by using the expression of "Nusrat Bhai," right, left and the center.
One left him with the illusion of meeting someone known for years.
The "intermediaries" were not comfortable
with the idea that this correspondent is not in the habit of recording
interviews, or even taking notes. "Saheb" didn't appear upset, though.
He had a tape-recorder before him. And, he defined the "off" and "on" the
record portions of the interview, by pushing and pulling the red button
for recording.
However, during the 90-minute interview
he kept on insisting that "extremist elements" of Muslim community, both
in India and Pakistan, were primarily responsible for the perpetual state
of tension between the two counties and Hindu-Muslim communities.
"The partition (of India) 53 years
ago," he believed, "could provide a way out to age-old acrimony between
Hindus and Muslims. After all, it delivered what the leaders (of South
Asian Muslims) had been demanding for years i.e. a separate country for
them. But, things didn't turn the way we had imagined."
He didn't agree with the opinion
that non-resolution of the Kashmir problem keeps the pot boiling in South
Asia. He insisted that the "majority of our Muslims is not encouraged to
live like the responsible citizens of the Republic of India by their haughty
leaders." This was "the problem" for Mr. Thackeray.
"The so-called secularists of ours"
are another impediment to Indian Muslims' joining the mainstream. "Their
politics is geared and oriented to pampering of the vote-banks. That encourages
fragmentation of the society with assertion and maintenance of exclusive
but divisive blocks, based on communal and caste sentiments," he kept insisting.
The Shiv Sena leader vehemently
denied that he ever projected "all Muslims of India as traitors or that
he had demanded that they must not have the right to vote.""Taking on the
pretentious- types a la Mamta Bannerji a few weeks ago, I had asserted
that the so-called secularists of India care for Muslim-votes only. They
would forget all about them, if the right of vote is taken away from this
community. But some (Indian) journalists, who are in the pay of certain
political parties, flashed my remarks out of the context. That of course
was music to my enemies in Pakistan," he explained.
And, poor Thackeray, who is not
allowed to caste his vote for six years by the Election Commission of India,
was projected as if demanding the same for whole of the Muslim community
here."
Follow are the relevant extracts:
Q: The security is really tight
around you?
A: I didn't ask for it. The police
set this up after arresting four Laskar-e-Taiba activists some weeks ago.
They have been living in Thane (a city close to Mumbai) for more than two
months. After diligent mapping, they were looking for means of getting
me killed.
Q: But, why Lashkar-e-Taiba wants
to kill you?
A: Because I propagate the Hindu
thoughts. But I am not doing that in Pakistan. It's only the Muslims who
relish the liberty of drumming the Muslim thoughts in India and get away
with it. We have a newspaper with the name of "Muslim India," for example.
Can a Hindu dare to print any publication with the name of "Hindu Pakistan"
in your country?
The whole problem (between Hindus
and Muslims) begins from here. We thought everything among us had been
settled with partition 53 years ago. But, then came Kashmir. As if that
were not enough, also surfaced separatist demands of Sikhs and Dalits.
As a patriotic Indian, I get upset
with these things. There is no doubt in my mind that your ISI and Lashkar-e-Taiba
have bad designs against my country. But they should realise that both
India and Pakistan have so many problems to deal with. Our priority should
be the resolution of those problems arising out of mass poverty. And, the
lack of good living, better health, education and sustainable means of
income for the mass of our people.
Q: But you are not known for talking
about these things in Pakistan. Out there, you rather have the reputation
of a communalist and a rabble-rouser?
A: Nusrat Ji, I never take the initiative
of attacking Muslims. Some of their leaders provoke me to speak up by constantly
talking about their religion. They want, for example, that all the civil
matters (marriage, divorce and the disputes of inheritance etc) among and
about them should be dealt with according to Shariat. That there should
be separate personal laws for Muslims in India.
Now, I say that if the Indian Muslims
want Islam ruling their lives, no problems with that. But, why keep it
to civil and personal affairs only. Why not to extend Shariat to criminal
matters too? The hands of a Muslim in India should be chopped, if he is
found guilty of theft. Similarly, he should be stoned to death in case
of committing adultery. It should not be head I win, tail you lose.
It is the communalist Muslim leaders
who are rabble-rousers. They are just not pushed with the terrible but
very widespread poverty, ill-health and mass-illiteracy among the Muslims
of India. Instead of doing something to resolve these problems, they keep
drumming the slogan of Shariat-Shariat.
And, I tell them that in India you
can only live as the citizens of this Republic.
Q: But many people I approached
during my stay in India to understand the phenomenon of Shiv Sena claim
that Thackeray Saheb always need a target to spit the venom at. Only that
keeps his constituency intact. Beginning with taking on Gujratis' hold
of Mumbai, you came to people who had come to this metropolis from the
South. After expending your anger against them, you needed a new target.
And, Muslims were the ready-made one for you?
Q: I don't look for targets. They
drop in my lap. Look at Pakistan. Our Prime Minister went there (Vajpayee's
bus ride to Lahore). That exposed him to an intense criticism here. But
what happened in the end? Kargil. And, incessant chant of Kashmir- Kashmir
from Pakistan. Shouldn't I talk about it.
Q: We were discussing your problems
with Muslims in India?
A: I am not creating any problems
for them. Muslims are making it difficult for them. I have no doubts in
my mind that an average Muslim of India wants to live in peace. But come
Laskar-e-Taiba and ISI to create rifts and fan the
Hindu-Muslim divide.
Take the case of Dawood Ebrahim.
You must be knowing the havoc he is creating in this city, by remote controlling
bomb blasts and gang wars. And, who he hires as mercenaries? Of course,
the unemployed Muslim youth.
Q: Shouldn't that create problems
for the whole Muslim community here?
A: Incidentally, where is he living
these days? Of course in Karachi. And, his living there has to make Pakistan
look like a villain to us. After all, there are so many Muslim countries
in the world. Why of all the countries, Dawood Ebrahim, a wanted criminal
of the first order, should be living in the one and only (Pakistan)?
But I don't want to discuss that
gangster on and on. Suffice is to say that Dawood Ebrahim is spending a
very comfortable life in your country. But the Muslim youth are dying in
his name or getting into serious trouble here for his doings.
Q: Still, you demand that the whole
of Indian Muslims must not have the right to vote?
A: This is what I call the absolute
twisting by some mischievous journalists. I had only said if the right
to vote is taken away from Muslim in India, none of the so-called secularists
would care for them. They don't have any love lost for this community.
What they really interested in is the Muslim vote-bank. But my remarks
were splashed out of the context. I insist even before you that the so-called
secularists of India care two hoots for Muslims. Do you know? During this
Ramadan, every political party and leader tried to be one up against the
other by throwing Iftar parties.
To me, the race for Iftar parties
took away the sanctity of fasting. It rather reduced the sacred ritual
of Iftar to Bazzaroo (vulgar and cheap) levels. I can't help if my saying
this is not understood properly.
Q: You sound claiming to be not
a communalist?
A: You have admitted that Shiv Sena
does a lot of social work. Now, we are very clear that calamities like
the famine, flood or earthquakes, like the one which recently occurred
in Gujrat, don't spare the Muslims from Hindus or vice versa. It has been
for years that Sena is running an ambulance service to help the needy in
case of an emergency. Tell me even one incident, when a Sena ambulance
ran away after finding out that the person in need was named like a Muslim.
I will ask the closure of this service there and then, if such a thing
had ever occurred.
Nusrat Bhai, I don't want to become
something. I am not very keen of giving autographs either. Nor do I want
to get a nice biography written about me. I don't contest for elections
even. Yet, the Election Commission of India had banned me for casting my
vote for six years after calling me a communalist. I was tried many a time
under this charge. But, before the courts I would always assert that it
is not me but the courts of India who practice communalism. You know as
to how?
In the witness box, a Muslim would
be given the copy of Holy Quran; the Hindu would get Geeta and a Christian
the copy of Bible to swear by, before making a statement. Isn't that communalism?
I say that all citizens of India should swear on a copy of our constitution
for recording their statements before the courts of law. They should make
a vow that as the responsible citizens of the Republic of India, they would
not tell lies to subvert the delivery of justice by its courts. What is
wrong with that?
Sadly, my views are never projected
by (the mainstream) newspapers of India. Many people with definite political
and personal agendas of their own have sneaked into their offices. They
twist and often make the table stories. And, a false impression about me
and my thoughts gets perpetuated.
Q: Doesn't that call for a visit
to Pakistan by you. That may help our people to know the real Bal Thackeray?
A: You surely want to get me killed
by Lashkar-e-Taiba. They would love to kill me with embrace. Why should
I walk into the trap?. But seriously speaking, (Javed) Miandad also tried
to convince me for a visit to your country some months ago. Kargil had
recently occurred then. And, a lot of suspicions were prevailing amongst
both the countries. The environment has not improved since then. It's futile
to visit each other in times of total mistrust.
Sensing that I was running short
of questions, the Shiv Sena leader volunteered to play an audio cassette
to make me understand as to how "Hindus are provoked to retaliate with
anger by the doings of some Muslim leaders of India." He had the recording
of the speech, a Janata Party MP had supposedly delivered at a public meeting
in Hyderabad. It had all the tone and tenor of rabble-rousing; by daring
"infidels" for "the final war" in poetic metaphors.
Thackeray made me hear the relevant
portions with pushing and playing the control buttons. "Don't you think
it hurts (the Hindu feelings)," he asked in the end?.
My somewhat apologetic silence forced
him to claim that "Muslims are nowhere pampered the way they are in my
country." To prove his point, he recalled that the government of India
would spend "Rs 140 crore" this year to subsidize air lifting of pilgrims
to and from Saudi Arabia. "Show me any Muslim country, where the state
spends the amount of this size to facilitate the performing of Hajj by
its citizens?"
He even claimed to have heard and
seen on television "with my own eyes and ears" that some Muslims from India
were "instantly thrown out of Saudi Arabia for violating some of their
minor laws. Before deportation they were detained for three days. Nothing
was offered to them for eating or drinking during the captivity. Criminals
were treated like the criminals. What stops India to emulate the same practice,
when it comes to its Muslim citizens?"
