Author:
Publication: Global Television
(Canada): Global Sunday
Date: September 28, 2003
URL: http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1270
Danielle Smith: Good evening everyone,
I'm Danielle Smith in Calgary. Welcome to Global Sunday, the forum for
the issues and topics that matter most to Canadians. . Is Islam overdue
for an overhaul? Irshad Manji, author of a new book The Trouble with Islam
is with us in Vancouver and joining us now is historian Daniel Pipes, Director
of the Middle East Forum, a Philadelphia-based research institute. Thanks
for being with us Daniel.
Daniel Pipes: Thank you.
Smith: And here in the studio, professor
Aaron Hughes from the Religious Studies Department of the University of
Calgary. Welcome Aaron.
Aaron Hughes: Thank you.
Smith: Gentlemen, we've just been
talking with Irshad about her new book The Trouble with Islam, Daniel,
can you give us...broaden this out and give us a wider perspective, is
the entire Muslim world at war with the West?
Pipes: Oh no, not at all, fortunately,
but a very significant and dynamic minority. I estimate ten or fifteen
percent of Muslims are at war with the West and perhaps at war with more
than that. I mean ten or fifteen percent are at war from the militant Islamic
perspective and perhaps some others from a different perspective, but certainly
by all means not the whole of Muslim world.
Smith: Okay, Aaron, can you give
us some idea, how much of this extremism is apparent in North America already?
Hughes: Well, I think there's a
lot of potential for extremism in North America. You see it in certain
mosques, mosques as Irshad's book mentions that are in influenced by Wahhabism,
which is a certain militant, a very ultra conservative form of Islam. I
might add though that I'm very much for Irshad's argument, but this concept
of ijtihad is also potentially problematic, because anyone can use it.
So you can have liberals using ijtihad and I think if you ask Osama bin
Laden what he's doing, he's also using some form of ijtihad, so I guess
it's a double edged sword and we have to watch out for it.
Irshad Manji: And I think you're
quite right Professor Hughes. The thing that I would add however is that
while maybe a, you know, relatively small minority within the world of
Islam, even here in the West are fanatic, actively speaking, far too many
more of us are complacent. And we let the fanatics get away with it...
Hughes: That's true.
Manji: ...and that is why I am calling
on my fellow mainstream Muslims to wake-up and to tackle what's going on
in our faith. It is not enough simply to say "hmmm, Islam is about peace,
Islam is about love," we have been hijacked and all of those other mantras
we constantly heard, and still hear after 9/11. The question is "What are
we specifically doing about it if we are going to prove that Islam is about
all of these wonderful things?"
Smith: But who is it that currently
is guiding the direction that Islam is taking? Who does interpret the Koran?
Daniel?
Pipes: Well, there are the traditional
authorities who have gone through thirty years of schooling, but they increasingly
are being pushed aside. Instead it's the dynamos, it's the Islamists, it's
the people who are on the internet who are very radical in outlook, who
are dominating the interpretation. There is however, increasingly especially
since 9/11 a counter-argument being forwarded by people like Miss Manji
who are saying no, enough, we don't have to go this route. It's still incipient,
it's still insurgent, it's still minority, but it is very, very important
that it's being heard.
Smith: By and large would you say
North America then, that it's more moderate than mainstream North America.
Hughes: I don't think it is. I think
for the reasons that Irshad mentions in her book. There's much more freedoms
here that some people use positively. I would like to add though that historically,
we can find this in Islam. I mean...
Manji: Exactly.
Hughes: ...there's you know, the
different schools of fiqh or jurisprudence. There's a number of different,
proper interpretations of the Koran. So you talk about the almost renewing
Islam with this Talmudic type of argument and it's there.
Manji: That's right.
Hughes: It's just we have to rediscover
it.
Manji: As a matter of fact, just
to springboard from Professor Hughes's point, in the early decades of Islam
a 135 schools of thought flourished. All right. Cordoba, one of the most,
you know, sophisticated cities in Muslim Spain housed 70 libraries, 70.
Danielle, that's one for every virgin that today's Muslim martyrs are promised.
And isn't that an interesting contrast that we had books then and we've
got babes today, I don't want to see my Islam degenerate to that point.
Smith: That's right, well Daniel,
as the historian, what happened? How do we go from this Mecca of free expression
and free thought and free interpretation to where we're at now?
Pipes: Well if you take a very long
and difficult history...to make it short. Basically the Muslim world was
doing very well in earlier centuries and with the modern period, that is
in the last two centuries, it has been doing very badly. What we're seeing
in this radicalism is a response to frustration anger and failure - an
attempt through violence and radicalism to re-establish Muslim strength.
Of course it's not going to work but that is what we're seeing. That's
what we're living through and our goal, Muslim and non-Muslim together,
must be to defeat this radical expression and find something moderate,
modern, good neighborly to take its place.
Smith: Well then, Aaron, do we have
to start addressing some of the root causes of this discontent? Whether
it's poverty, whether it's despotism, whether...I mean is that where we
have to begin?
Hughes: Right. Well I think Daniel's
last answer is really the rub. I think we have to start encouraging this,
but the question is how do we do it? I mean as soon as we throw money at
any type of Muslim, Muslim organization, automatically it's seen as suspect.
So, I mean, I guess we could try to address the root causes, but I like
what Irshad's trying to do in her book and call for this reformation. Because
as we've seen, we've seen a reformation in Judaism, we've seen one in Christianity
and people have always said that, you know, it's Islam's turn. And I think
Irshad's book is framed in such a way, that, you know, in a very bold critique
of the tradition. So I think what we'll see now is a reaction by Muslims
here, Muslims in the Arab Islamic world. And sometimes there's going to
be middle ground. So what I'm looking for what's going to happen fifteen
years from now?
Manji: And you know, I'm happy to
point out, speaking of reaction that in addition to all the angry mail
through my website, I'm also getting plenty of positive supportive mail
not just from non-Muslims, but from Muslims as well. And I'm not surprised
to say this from young Muslim women who are cheering me on who are saying
thank you for being the one to stand up and articulate what we've always
been thinking and feeling. The sad part right now is that too many of them
are also saying, "I can't step out of the box at this moment because I
still fear persecution." But remember it's only been a few days since the
book is released and hopefully over the course of a longer term there will
be that courage.
Smith: But Irshad, you're getting
threats, aren't you? I mean it's not just discontent with what you're saying,...
Manji: Sure.
Smith: ...you're actually getting
bodily threats?
Manji: Yes I am but I personally
Danielle am not afraid for my life. I have all of the peace of mind I need
and am very resolute in the integrity of what I've done and why I'm doing
it and I will not step back.
Hughes: Can I just step in for a
second? I think it's interesting that if there is a reformation Islam,
I think it will occur in North America. It will be centric here. That's
because we're asking the questions here. So North American Islam is traditionally
always been alienated historically. Muslims in the West are kind of being
ignored but now, after September the 11[th], I think this is where North
American Muslim could really shine on the global stage.
Manji: I think professor Hughes
is right, that this is where we could shine, but I disagree profoundly
that this is where we are shining. I actually find that far too Muslims....to
few Muslims here do use the precious freedoms that we got to think, express,
challenge and be challenged all without fear of state reprisal. But you're
right on one front, sir, and that is the North America can very much be
the beginning of the Islamic reformation.
Smith: Okay panel, we just have
to take a quick break there. It's time for our final break and when we
get back, final thoughts from our panel in two minutes. .Welcome back.
All right Aaron, if there's going to be an Islamic reformation what can
the West do to help that along?
Hughes: Well, that's tricky, I mean,
first I'd like to say can the West do and what can the Western Muslims
do? I think what the West can do....see, we have to be careful because
if we start, you know favoring certain groups, giving them money, then
it's always seen as tainted money. So I would think that what we have to
do is do it on the marketplace of ideas. What people like Irshad are doing?
There's a number of other Muslims that are writing books like this. And
maybe these will be translated into the Arab world, into the Islamic world
and either they'll get some kind of audience. Whether it succeeds or fails
is another matter. But I think Muslims have to confront this and it is
an important first step.
Smith: Irshad, is getting information
out enough?
Manji: Um, no, not enough, but it
is definitely a start. Um I think one of the things that I need my fellow
Muslims to understand is this: You know, they always say to me Irshad it's
not Islam that needs a reformation, it's Muslims. Well I'm sorry, that's
a fancy schmancy semantic argument you're making because what is a religion
if not the behavior of its practitioners. And in fact Prophet Muhammad
himself was asked, you know, "What is religion?" And he replied: "Religion
is the way we conduct ourselves towards others." Well by that standard
how Muslims actually behave is Islam and to sweep that reality under the
rug of semantics in my view is to absolve ourselves of our responsibility
to question.
Smith: Okay, Daniel, last word to
you, what can Western governments do?
Pipes: Governments and leading institutions
can do a lot. If you look at the situation today throughout the West including
North America, you'll find that the Islamists, the radicals are the ones
invited into government circles who are generally in the media, are cited
as authorities who do the research in universities, who engage in discussions
with the churches and so forth. It is important for all these institutions,
governmental, academic, media and alike, to remove the recognition from
the Islamists and give it to the moderate Muslims.
Smith: All right Daniel Pipes, Aaron
Hughes, Irshad Manji, thank you all for joining us.
