Author:
Publication: The Strait Times
Date: June 21, 2003
URL: http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/commentary/story/0,4386,195450,00.html?
It was a touching interview, and
one that disturbed him, said Khalid Mohd, Group Editor-in-Chief of Utusan
Malaysia, after interviewing Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad
last week. Here is a translated excerpt from the Malay-language daily.
Q. AFTER 22 years of being at the
helm of Umno, in terms of Umno performance, what has Umno achieved under
Datuk Seri's leadership, and what has not been achieved?
As usual, there are bad things and
good things. Clearly, support for Umno has increased. Although support
for the opposition parties has increased too, the increase in support for
Umno is so great that Umno membership is now more than three million people.
The younger generation is more active in the Youth and Wanita wings. Puteri
Umno, too, is receiving great support. In terms of the party, I think my
contribution can be said to be good and this has contributed to the success
of the party. In other aspects, for example national development, it is
for others to make the assessment. I cannot make the assessment.
Q. What has not been achieved?
My intention, when we introduced
the New Economic Policy (NEP), was to give a headstart to the bumiputeras
and Malays so that they could compete with the other races, as well as
not be too dependent on the government. I find that after implementing
the NEP for more than 30 years, the majority of bumiputeras are still not
able to stand independently. Though some are successful - we admit that
some are very successful - many still cannot be independent. They
only want government contracts and want to sell to the government. Everything
must be with the government. If there is no government, they will fall.
CULTURE A FACTOR
Q. DATUK Seri is a politician and,
at the same time, also a thinker who thinks of new ideas for the Malay
race. In the context of this role, what are the weaknesses of the Malays
whom Datuk Seri has described as 'a group that is not able to stand on
its own two feet'? What are the problems of the Malays?
Our culture. We prefer things that
are easier rather than try to overcome challenges. When we go for things
that are easier, we become weak. I have repeatedly said that if we always
rely on the walking stick, our legs will become paralysed. But they want
to use the walking stick because it is easier than standing on their own
feet. This is the culture that is causing Malays to be less successful.
Even today, if there is no government to help the Malays, they will fall.
But this culture is not new. Historically, we have been like that. In the
past, the Malay rulers, too, looked for the easier way.
For example, when the Chinese towkays
came to collect more taxes than before, the Malay rulers simply handed
over the tax collection to the Chinese until they eventually monopolised
the tax collection. It was likewise with the sale of opium. It was handed
to the Chinese because the Malay ruler was guaranteed a sum of payment
- a sum higher than that collected by the Malay ruler himself. The reason
why the ruler received little tax was that in the course of collecting
taxes, the officials took bribes. That was the reason why the ruler was
not able to collect taxes in full. When the Chinese towkays promised to
pay more than that collected by the official, the ruler simply accepted.
Then came the British. They told
the ruler: 'We will pay pension (political pension). The ruler does not
have to do any work, does not have to administer anything. The British
will administer - we will pay for all the expenses.' Seeing that they could
gain something so easily and receive political pension without having to
work, they simply surrendered everything to the British. We were not captured
by the British. We surrendered our state to the British because it was
an easier way out.
Q. Datuk Seri has been trying to
change the Malays, but Datuk Seri and Umno have failed to change the Malays'
attitude. What seems to be the obstacle?
They are sort of stubborn. We have
said to them 100 times and in the midst of us saying it, they are doing
just that. For example, I have told them that I cannot give them contracts;
I am not the person who can award contracts. They will have to go through
the officers, there are evaluation procedures and so on. But they still
write to me asking for contracts. To them, as a prime minister, I can do
everything. If I were to do so, to follow their method, I think the government
would be ruined.
Q. How is it that after more than
30 years of implementing the NEP and the passing of one generation of Malays
through the process of changing their mindset, their attitude still has
not changed? Where is the mistake?
We practise a democratic system.
Democracy requires that we be popular in order to be elected. So, when
we apply too much pressure (in pushing the Malays to be more successful),
they will become disappointed and they will reject us - reject us in the
party, reject us in the election and we will lose the chance to provide
the services required.
That is why it is so difficult.
Under a true system of democracy, we face pressure from the voters. Voters
will say that if you do not do this for us, we will not support you. They
do not take into consideration whether what we want to do is good or not.
Q. Is this culture or a weakness
in the system of democracy itself? Others practise democracy, but they
are successful. They do not rely on the government. So, we cannot blame
it on democracy alone.
Our understanding of democracy is
quite shallow. We think: 'Ah, we have the right to exercise our vote. You
want my vote, give me something.' They do not say: 'If you want my vote,
govern the country well. Develop this country and help it to progress.'
They do not care. Even if the country does not progress, so long as they
can get something for their personal gain, they are willing to give their
support. The Malays' perception of democracy is different from that of
the people in developed countries, where the people want to see a government
that is able to keep its promises to develop the country, strengthen the
country and see to its progress.
Q. In the context of this attitude,
do we need to introduce a new formula to really tackle this problem?
If we become less democratic, it
will be a problem too. I support democracy because through democracy, we
can change the leaders without launching a revolution. But owing to the
shortcoming in democracy, as I have mentioned earlier, it is difficult
for us to come up with a new formula. If we find a way to limit the potential
to oust a government with votes alone, the ruling government may not be
so afraid of the electorate. At the same time, I admit, if the government
is not afraid of the voters, there is a tendency for a government to become
a bad government.
Q. Does it mean that Datuk Seri
is pessimistic about the future of the Malays?
Not totally pessimistic. We cannot
say that Malays are not successful. We are successful. We have been able
to produce many successful Malay entrepreneurs and businessmen. There are
also many Malays who are successful due to their own initiatives. In terms
of their involvement in professional fields, for example, the number of
Malay professionals has risen. Even though we view them as being uninterested
in education, despite their lack of interest, we are still able to produce
results.
Q. Would Datuk Seri gauge the achievements
of the Malays, let's say 20 years from now?
I am still not so positive. That
is what I see. I feel it is difficult to change the culture of the Malays
and their stance.
Q. What sort of Malays does Datuk
Seri desire?
I wish to see Malays who adhere
to noble and good values. We must be hardworking, diligent, seek knowledge,
be willing to face challenges, be free from reliance on others, including
the government. That is what I want to see.
Look at the Chinese. In spite of
the various obstacles we impose on them, like giving special privileges
to the Malays, and the difficulties they face in obtaining licences and
this and that, the Chinese are still successful.
ATTITUDES MUST CHANGE
Q. IS THERE a need for a radical
move?
There is a need for a radical move.
The problem is that if we do not want to change, it is difficult. Take,
for example, our recent decision that entry to university must be based
on merit. We found that it seemed to be effective in the beginning. But
in the second year of its implementation, the achievements of the Malay
students were not so good. When they have to compete with the Chinese,
they lose out. When we say compete, it means that to compete, we will usually
have to work harder. But for the Malays, when we say compete, they concede
defeat. This is a tidak apa lah (nonchalant) attitude. They do not want
to work hard. On the contrary, when we say to the Chinese, 'If you win,
you can be promoted', the Chinese will work very hard and more diligently
to win. The Malays are not like that.
Q. Some Chinese attribute the weaknesses
of the Malays to their special rights. Does Datuk Seri agree?
There cannot be totally no special
rights. They will lose and they will become disappointed. They will get
angry and this will be a problem too. When they fail, they will want to
topple the government.
Q. Datuk Seri says that he's still
not so positive about the future of the Malays. I am worried for our future.
If you are worried, then everyone
must endeavour to do something to correct it. We should not pamper the
Malays too much. We should let them compete by reducing a little support,
assistance and privileges. If, in the past, we said that we would still
give it (projects) to the Malays even if their tender price was 5 per cent
higher, now we reduce it from 5 to 2 per cent.
Q. Will they get angry if they do
not win?
Let's see what happens.
Q. Will this trend of being angry
with the government be perpetuated?
This has been going on for a long
time. This has been inculcated since pre-school days. Do not ask why you
hate; simply hate. They concocted stories that certain people are not Islamic
and so on. When people are full of hatred, they become irrational. They
do not think: 'Look, our country has developed, we must ensure that it
continues to progress.' They do not care about such things. They think:
'Even if he has done something good, I must still topple him because I
hate him.'
Q. This question is about leadership.
In Datuk Seri's tenure as the Umno president and Prime Minister, how many
of your deputies have fallen? What is Datuk Seri's advice to future leaders?
First, don't be impatient and too
eager for position. If we are too eager, people will come to us and give
advice. These people are self-seeking. They will tell you that so-and-so
is bad and should be toppled, and they will plot to topple certain leaders
so that they can take over. If we want something, don't be too eager. Otherwise,
we will do something that is not correct.
I myself am like that. While waiting
for Tun Hussein Onn to pick the deputy prime minister, some people in Umno
tried their level best to get the post. When they did not, they were disappointed.
As for me, I left it to God. If I get it, I get it. I had no campaign whatsoever...
I was selected. If I had not been selected, I would have supported whoever
was selected. I wouldn't have run away from Umno. Even though I was expelled
from Umno, I still wanted to return.
Q. Datuk Seri has expressed concern
about contests for posts in the party.
What is wrong in having contests
for party posts? Umno is a democratic party. Contests symbolise the existence
of democracy. They do not understand anything about contests. All they
know is that to have contests, we have to have factions. If they are later
defeated, they will not extend support to the winning side. Contests are
a competition between two or three sides. We follow whoever is victorious.
If they can understand that, there will not be a problem. If they feel
that they must contest a post, okay, go ahead, but they must not use dirty
tactics, because if they use dirty tactics it's impossible to reconcile
differences. We close ranks and support the victor when the contest is
over. Unfortunately, they do not understand this. If they lose, they sulk.
How can such people be leaders? They forget that if they win, the losers
will say similar things to them. Eventually, Umno is split apart. If you
want to contest, go ahead, contest. But if you lose, accept your defeat.
It is the party that is important, not you.
'NO' TO MAHATHIR DYNASTY
Q. RECENTLY, Datuk Seri said that
he does not want to see the existence of a Mahathir dynasty. Is this fair
to Datuk Seri's children?
Yes, it's certainly not fair to
my children. And I do not know if what I am saying is fair, but I do not
like to see a dynasty in Umno. That means that when I step down as the
Member of Parliament, the person who will be standing as the candidate
for Kubang Pasu will not be one of my children. If others want to stand
at Kubang Pasu, let them.
I think Datuk Seri is referring
to Kubang Pasu only, but not to other places.
I was referring to Kubang Pasu.
There are people in Kubang Pasu who are suspicious that I will arrange
for my son to be fielded in Kubang Pasu. Let me affirm that I will not
field my son there. But if my son wants to be active in Umno, and if people
want him, I don't see anything wrong with that.
There were people who wanted my
son to stand in the last two general elections, but I did not give permission.
If I gave permission while still holding the post of Prime Minister, people
will say that I practise nepotism.
Q. On Malay unity, does Datuk Seri
think the goal will ever be achieved?
It is one thing to have unity, but
there must be common purpose. If we have unity but there is no common desire
for unity, there will be no unity. Thus, if there is to be Malay unity,
say PAS and Umno want to unite, there must be a common objective. When
PAS joined the Barisan Nasional, PAS focused on activities that strengthened
its position only.
That is why Umno had to separate
from PAS, because the PAS leaders used whatever ministerial posts we gave
them to advance the interests of their party.
Q. What is Datuk Seri's message
for Umno and the Malays?
My message is this: Love Umno (he
paused and continued in a stifled voice), love your race and your nation.
Do not love self. Your own selves are not important. If we love Umno, love
our race, love our nation, insya-Allah, we will succeed. It is very simple,
self is the last. Self does not matter. If you don't get it, it does not
matter. If you get it, be grateful. If you do not, it is okay. As simple
as that, and the Malays will last forever.
