Author:
Publication: www.danielpipes.org
Date: August 29, 2003
URL: http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1234
And tonight, we're spotlighting
Columbia University, where the Middle East Studies Department has been
criticized for hiring outspoken opponents of American and Israeli policy.
Now, some Israeli supporters are concerned that Columbia has just appointed
Rashid Khalidi, a fervent opponent of Israel, to the anonymously endowed
Edward Said Chair.
With me now, Columbia University
Professor Rashid Khalidi, and Daniel Pipes of the Middle East Forum. Professor,
let me begin with you and just ask you to defend yourself against these
charges that you are anti-American or that you are anti-Israeli.
RASHID KHALIDI, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY:
Well, I don't think I should have to defend myself. The charges themselves
are scurrilous and the people who are making them are not very reputable
themselves. I am somebody whose record and what I've written is well known.
I'm somebody who thinks that the United States has made some mistakes in
the Middle East and that these are things that are not in the best interest
of the United States or the American people.
And the kind of people who would
call critics of this or that policy unpatriotic or un-American, I think,
are doing the United States and the people of the United States a terrible
disservice.
SCARBOROUGH: Fair enough, Professor.
KHALIDI: So I don't think I really
need to defend myself at all.
SCARBOROUGH: OK, well, let me bring
up a quote or two and have you respond to these quotes and whether you
think they are being misinterpreted. This is what you said in a speech
in June: "Israel has killed three times as many innocent civilians as have
Palestinians, for all the media hysteria about suicide bombers. Killing
civilians is a war crime, whoever does it, although resistance to Israeli
occupation is legitimate in international law."
Now, Professor, it sounds like you
are saying there very much that suicide bombings, like the tragic one last
week that killed quite a few young children, are legitimate in international
law. Do you agree or disagree with that?
KHALIDI: Absolutely not. Absolutely
not.
SCARBOROUGH: You do not believe
that?
KHALIDI: Absolutely. That is not
what I said and that's not even what the New York Post, which is notorious
for making mistakes on things like this, said. What I said and what I believe
is that killing civilians, in any manner, form, or shape, is a war crime,
is a violation of international law. The massacre of innocent children
by suicide bombers is, in my view, a war crime. And that is what I said
in the speech that was taken out of context in that New York Post article.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: I'm sorry. Go ahead.
KHALIDI: What I went on to say is
that, in international law, in a situation where you have military occupation,
resistance against that occupation is, under international law, considered
legitimate. That is a far cry from suicide bombs or attacks on civilians,
which are, as far as I'm concerned and as far as international law is concerned,
war crimes.
SCARBOROUGH: All right, Daniel Pipes,
the professor sounds very reasonable. But there's been a big stir that
he and other Columbia professors actually believe that suicide bombings
are legitimate political expressions. Has the professor gotten a bad rap
or do you really believe that he is anti-Israeli?
DANIEL PIPES, MIDDLE EAST FORUM:
Well, the question isn't whether he's pro-Israeli or anti, Joe. The question
is, what is he justifying? And he did justify violence against those in
occupation.
So my question for Mr. Khalidi is,
are Israelis living within the Green Line occupiers or are they legitimate
citizens of a state whose existence you accept?
KHALIDI: I don't really think I
have to answer questions from the like of Daniel Pipes. But what I would
say is that any Israeli living within Israel, the legitimate borders of
the state of Israel, yet to be defined, because there has not yet been
a treaty defining them-but everybody accepts that Israel is a state, has
legitimacy within certain frontiers yet to be defined, presumably the Green
Line-those people obviously should be immune from attack. There is no question
that civilians inside Israel, civilians anywhere in the world should not
be attacked.
And I don't quite understand why
the likes of Mr. Pipes is being put on television to question me. I would
ask Mr. Pipes, how does he feel about the killing of Palestinian civilians
by Israeli occupation forces? What does he feel about the legitimacy of
the Israeli occupation that has gone on for several decades?
SCARBOROUGH: Mr. Pipes, Mr. Pipes,
obviously, you are an outspoken critic of Hamas and the Palestinians. Answer
that question.
PIPES: Well, I regret every time
any Palestinian is killed who is innocent. That goes without question.
But I have a second question for Mr. Khalidi. And I know he doesn't want
to take it, but I will ask it anyway. How about the children and innocents
who are living outside of the Green Line? Is it OK to murder them or is
.
(CROSSTALK)
KHALIDI: I would argue that the
killing of civilians anywhere, under any circumstances, is a war crime.
PIPES: Good.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Hold on a second right
there. I think that answers the question.
And, professor, you said the New
York Post misquoted you. I want to read you another quote and see if this
is also a misquote, because I think you have answered your charges thus
far very eloquently. There was, of course, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul
Wolfowitz, who you supposedly called "a fanatic, extreme right-wing Zionist."
You said that Israel is a "racist" state with an "apartheid system" and
that America has been "brainwashed" by Israel. Now, did you say those things,
yes or no? And if you did say them, do you believe that American politicians
have been brainwashed by Israel?
KHALIDI: I have to tell you, Joe,
I don't recognize any one of those quotes.
SCARBOROUGH: Really?
KHALIDI: I do think-let me answer
your question. I do think that we are in the unfortunate situation of having
an administration in which, instead of people who have real expertise about
the Middle East being called upon, people in the Central Intelligence Agency,
people in the Defense Intelligence Agency, people in the State Department,
we have a bunch of ideologues, a bunch of people who follow one narrow
political philosophy and who, generally speaking, couldn't find their way
from the airport to the Hilton without a minder in most Middle East capitals,
in the office of the secretary of defense, in the vice president's office,
leading us around by the nose.
Now, some of these people are extreme
American nationalists. Some of these people are virulent supporters of
Israel. And some of these people are supporters of other philosophies.
(CROSSTALK)
KHALIDI: I think that they are leading
us down the garden path. And I think that their policy on the Palestine-Israel
question and their policy on Iraq is mistaken. And we can see the fruits
of it before our eyes.
SCARBOROUGH: OK, I am glad you said
that, Professor, because I've got to tell you, one of the things that frustrates
me so much is, I hear people saying how right-wing, how fanatical, high
Zionist this administration is. But if that's the case, then forget just
this administration. Why have Bill Clinton and George Bush so aggressively
tried to create a Palestinian state, have set up-I mean, George Bush was
attacked by his own right-wing when he tried to set up his road map for
peace. And it seems like, every time we start taking those first steps
toward Palestinian statehood, Hamas detonates another bomb and blows the
peace process up. What's happening there?
KHALIDI: I think what's happening
there is, MSNBC and ABC and all the rest of you are not doing a very good
job of covering what goes on. Hamas and the Israeli army are engaged in
a very deadly dance. The fact that Hamas is attacking Israelis-which, in
my view, is reprehensible-I am a much more severe critic of Hamas than
Mr. Pipes is-is not the whole issue. It is part of the issue. They are
working to derail efforts that would take them away from the center of
politics, but so is the Israeli army.
You guys never quoted the Israeli
minister of defense, when he said: We have to show the Palestinians. We
have to make them understand that they are a defeated people. You never
quote Israeli journalists who talk about how the policy of assassination
is provoking these hideous suicide bombings. I think that you all are not
doing a very good job of covering the Middle East, frankly. You repeat
the same little bits again and again, the same little bits of conventional
wisdom. You have the likes of Mr. Pipes on. But you don't really show exactly
who, not just Hamas, but also, for example, the Israeli army or the settlers,
are working against this road map and working against a settlement.
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: We are running out
of time.
PIPES: Quickly, can I add something?
SCARBOROUGH: I've got to have a
quick response from you, Mr. Pipes. Then we've got to go.
PIPES: Mr. Khalidi denied calling
Paul Wolfowitz "a fanatical, extreme, right-wing Zionist."
(CROSSTALK)
PIPES: Let me give the reference
for it, Mr. Khalidi. It was an article called "Bush Winds Back U.S. Policy,"
Australian Financial Review, February 8, 2001. Your viewers can go see
it. Mr. Khalidi is, as usual, not quite fully telling the truth.
[Time was lacking to give the reference
for the other quotes about Israel being a "racist" state with an "apartheid
system" and that America has been "brainwashed" by Israel. These come from
Jordan Elgrably, "Crisis of Our Times: Nationalism, Identity and the Future
of Israel/ Palestine, an Interview with Rashid Khalidi" Oct. 2000, http://www.opentent.org/essays/
khalidi.html.]
SCARBOROUGH: All right, gentlemen,
thank you so much for being with us. I appreciate both of you being on.
And I have got to say, we tell it
like it is. We bring you the truth. We don't tell you just one side of
the story. All I know is this. I had a lot of conservatives attack me when
I said George Bush should use the victory in Iraq to force a road map to
peace in Israel. He did that. He took a lot of heat for it. And Hamas started
blowing up little children when it looked like that road map might actually
succeed.
