Author: Matthias Gebauer and Charles Hawley
Publication: Spiegel Online
Date: July 22, 2005
URL: http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,366371,00.html
The investigation into the July 7 London bombings
quickly revealed ties to Pakistan. But just what role did the country run
by Gen. Pervez Musharraf play in the terror attacks? SPIEGEL ONLINE spoke
with Ahmed Rashid about the country's reliance on extremist groups, radical
religious schools and the reason Osama bin Laden remains at large, very likely
in Pakistan.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Mr. Rashid, after the London
bombings, police quickly revealed that most of the bombers were British citizens
of Pakistani origin and that they might have traveled to Pakistan to receive
instructions and training prior to the July 7 attacks. Was this a surprise
to you?
Rashid: People in Pakistan were very apprehensive
after the bombing, but the connection with Pakistan did not come as a surprise.
It was clear there was a great danger that the Pakistani community in London
would carry out such an attack. It is well known that the Muslim community
there is very radical -- at least some of them. People also knew many of them
had connections in Pakistan.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: There have been a number of
arrests in Pakistan in recent days. Were the roots of the London attacks in
Britain or were they in Pakistan?
Rashid: The roots of the attack were in England.
There has been an enormous radicalization of British Muslims in the last few
years and especially since the Sept. 11 attacks in the United States. There
are radical preachers, there are radical mosques. There are lots of schools
there which have been teaching students the Koran on Friday afternoons and
at the same time radicalizing them. There is no dearth of ideological training
in England.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: So how great a role does Pakistan
play in international terrorism?
Rashid: Pakistan remains the global center
for terrorism and for the remnants of al-Qaida, which is still very strong
here. The fact is, after Sept. 11, despite the many crackdowns made by the
military regime of Gen. Pervez Musharraf, we haven't effectively shut down
the Pakistani militant groups. The reason for that is that these groups are
very closely tied into the military's foreign policy, especially with respect
to Kashmir and Afghanistan. The militant groups here have not been crushed
and if the madrassas they control -- they all control a certain number of
such religious schools -- are not shut down, we're not going to see an end
to militancy here.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: So in other words, despite
Musharraf's claims to be combating terrorism -- claims that he repeated in
his speech to Pakistan on Thursday evening -- he is not doing enough. Is that
what you are saying?
Rashid: When crackdowns do occur, they aren't
effective. Three hundred, or even 2,000, people are picked up, they're held
for 90 days and then they are freed as soon as the attention and pressure
from the West has stopped. There has never been an organized campaign to combat
it. It has never taken place.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: In his speech, Musharraf spoke
quite a bit about the July 7 bombings in London. What was the main message
he was trying to communicate to his nation?
Rashid: His main message was a very positive
one. He said we must combat extremism and launch a jihad against radicalism.
He asked that people mobilize and not vote for extremists and so on. But there
has been no shortage of such speeches. The main question is whether they will
be followed by any meaningful action.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Musharraf also emphasized
that the London bombers were born and raised in England as though he were
trying to take the blame off of Pakistan. What was he trying to say?
Rashid: The message was that you don't need
to come to Pakistan to become a fanatic. You can become a fanatic in Yorkshire,
in Leeds or anywhere in England because there's enough extremism there too.
That's what he was alluding to.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: You mentioned before that
there is a lot of work to do in Pakistan when it comes to cracking down on
extremism. But what can the West do to keep up pressure on the country and
on Musharraf to energetically combat fanaticism and terrorism?
Rashid: The biggest mistake the West has made
with Pakistan since 9/11 has been the pursuit of private diplomacy. It hasn't
been made public. The West should spell out exactly what is expected of Pakistan
and the regime. US President George W. Bush, British Prime Minister Tony Blair,
German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, they keep praising Pakistan and saying
it is doing a great job hunting down al-Qaida and the Taliban, but behind
the scenes they are whistling a completely different tune. The West needs
to have one policy which should be in the public domain. Then the Pakistani
public would insist that Musharraf fulfil these demands.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: But Musharraf is already under
great pressure as he tries to walk the fine line between being allied with
the West in the war on terror while at the same time having powerful factions
in his society that are radicalized and extreme.
Rashid: But that has been the argument for
the last four years. The fact is, Musharraf is still here, he is still very
much in power and absolutely nothing has been done about extremism. It is
clear that Musharraf has a very political agenda. He wants to be re-elected
in 2007 and he wants to remain in office until 2012. And for that, he needs
votes. At the same time, though, he has been trying to be a good partner with
the West. But his political agenda takes precedence over any commitments to
combating extremism and terrorism. An army general cannot have a political
agenda while he is trying to crack down on terror.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: One of the reasons the West
is not putting too much pressure on Musharraf is that it is afraid of what
would happen if he were no longer there. He has been targeted by assassination
attempts twice in his own country. What would happen if his government were
toppled or if he were killed?
Rashid: I have no doubt that the army would
take over again. People are afraid because the country has nuclear weapons
and they think the country would fall apart. I don't believe any of that would
happen. There would be continuity.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Since the July 7 bombings,
there has been lots of focus on the madrassas as a breeding ground for terrorism
and radicalism. What role do these religious schools play in Pakistan?
Rashid: The London bombers came to Pakistan,
but don't think they came to attend a madrassa. I think they came here to
make contacts with militant groups and possibly to get training. The majority
of madrassas in Pakistan -- I would say around 80 percent -- play a traditional
role. That means they teach the Koran and then produce mullahs or religious
leaders -- just like religious schools in any religion. But in Pakistan, a
number of madrassas have been taken over by militant groups and it has become
a sort of badge of honor for the extremists. These madrassas have become recruiting
platforms for these extremist groups. But it is difficult to close them down
because they are run by the militant groups Musharraf needs for other aspects
of his foreign policy.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: It is suspected that Osama
bin Laden is on the run or hiding somewhere in Pakistan. What role does he
still play in international terrorism?
Rashid: He is on the run. His main priority
at the moment is to stay alive. At the most, he may be able to provide some
strategic directives through his support group. But he's not in a position
to run day-to-day operations.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Some say that he is in Pakistan
and that the Pakistani secret services know where he is and could catch him,
but they are not willing to.
Rashid: He is certainly in Pakistan because
Pakistan has traditionally had the best infrastructure for al-Qaida. I don't
think the Pakistani military knows where he is, but they aren't looking very
hard either because they fear the military support they get from the United
States would disappear as soon as bin Laden is caught.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Indian Prime Minister Manmohan
Singh was recently in Washington and Bush promised closer cooperation -- even
support for India's civil nuclear program. What does that mean for Pakistan?
Rashid: The biggest fear of the Pakistani
military is the new American relationship with India. The fact that the Americans
are even willing to work with India's nuclear program now -- something they
would never do with Pakistan -- makes the military very nervous. They want
to keep the Americans on board, but the Pakistanis know that the long term
interests of the United States lie with India. The goal of the Pakistani military
is to keep the Americans on its side for as long as possible.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Where do you see Pakistan
in 10 years?
Rashid: The country has a lot of potential
and there is a democratic force here. But the main powers in the country at
the moment are without a doubt the military and the fundamentalists.
