Author: Gaurav Jain
Publication: Tehelka
Date: February 6, 2010
URL: http://www.tehelka.com/story_main43.asp?filename=hub060210i_see.asp
Introduction: Ayaan Hirsi Ali, 40, might still
be living in hiding but she remains as radical a critic of Islam as ever,
finds Gaurav Jain
Author of the memoir Infidel, Dutch writer
and politician Ayaan Hirsi Ali is now a fellow at the American Enterprise
Institute, Washington DC. Staying under a pseudonym at her Jaipur hotel, absent
from the festival programme and moving with a bodyguard, Ali chatted easily
during the discreet interview that was tightly scheduled a day in advance.
Excerpts:
Q.: Do you keep any hope from the moderate
wing of Islam?
A.: We have to make a separation between Islam and Muslims. Muslims as humans
and individuals are obviously capable of changing their minds. I was born
a Muslim and I'm no longer a Muslim. But Islamic theology - Islam means submission
to the Allah - if you compare that theology to western liberal thought, you'll
find very quickly that they're not only incompatible but very hostile to one
another. I find hope in individual Muslim men and women, and especially young
children. Instead of educating children in the theology of Islam, it's much
better to educate them in the values of the Enlightenment.
Q.: Do you feel you must repudiate Islam drastically
to be able to take a firm public stand against it?
A.: I think values clash. You have to take a very clear position. It doesn't
have to be a radical position, but it should be a clear position. My journey
of coming out of Islam simply demonstrates that it is possible for a Muslim
individual to change his or her mind. And I have to make it very clear, and
in the language of the Enlightenment, in accessible language - this is the
moral framework my parents gave me, here's why I left it, and here's the new
moral framework that I've adopted. If you get too woolly about it, the message
gets lost. And that benefits only the fundamentalists, because they are very
clear in their standpoint and in spreading Islam - they tell you this is halaal,
this is haraam, this is forbidden, you should pray five times a day, you should
combat the infidels, and if they don't convert willingly then kill them or
avoid them. There are all sorts of stages for apostates. This is how you should
treat women and gay people. They are very explicit about what Islam tells
you to do. And you can't take drones and shoot ideas out of people's heads.
What you can do is take a very clear position and explain to people why those
[other] values are wrong and their consequences, which are clear today.
Q.: Do you see the spread of Islam as a problem?
A.: I see it today as the greatest problem in history. Even if people don't
resort to terror and violence, still it's a closing of the Muslim mind. A
closing of the human mind. Because Islam doesn't allow you to think for yourself.
You follow a man who tells you this is halaal and this is haraam. Islam also
persuades you to invest in the hereafter, in life after death. I think that's
bad for people in general, even if they don't become violent. The question
that was posed in the first panel [at the JLF called Conspiracy, that I missed]
and I couldn't answer, I wanted to say - it's much better to come with a theology
of life, a theology that helps you invest in life here on earth. And if you
want to know why the Muslim world is lagging behind [the rest], it's because
of this investment in the hereafter.
Q.: Why is the burqa such a contemporary problem
today?
A.: When the veil is discussed in the West, unfortunately the discussion is
limited to the piece of textile. Should you cover your hair or your eyes,
etc. That's unfortunate, because we shouldn't talk so much about how big this
piece is, and what kind is worn in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan, but we should
talk about what it stands for. The veil stands for the idea that the woman's
body is seductive - it arouses the man. And if that happens, men cannot control
their sexuality - and so the best way to help men control their sexuality
is to cover women. If we talk about that, then I think the women who now wear
and flaunt it will have to ask themselves the following question - is it [for]
me to protect a man from his own sexuality, or should he learn to control
his desires and urges? Now, empirically, we've seen in India, China, the West,
men are capable of controlling their urges - and so that makes the burqa redundant.
A second reason, and this is why you see articulate,
well-educated, verbal women wearing the burqa is that it's an expression of
a political view. This political view is that Islam is a political theory,
it's the best theory, and sharia law should be implemented. It's like covering
yourself with a flag, it's one big demonstration. And so when it's about political
reasons, then you should address the political matter of discussing sharia
law.
Q.: What's the link with Islam that targets
individuals like you or Rushdie? 9/11 was a while ago but we still discuss
it constantly. What has changed?
A.: The people who disagreed with Samuel Huntington about a clash of civilisations
didn't win the argument, but they won office and policy. You see it from when
Salman Rushdie was threatened - by defining that as an isolated incident,
by disassociating it from civilisation - it's Khomeini, he's a radical, it's
just Iran and only Rushdie and we'll just deal with it and the problem will
go away. Increasingly, Huntington's thesis is becoming more and more plausible.
The Dutch stopping my security was to show
Muslims in Holland - we are on your side. It's a gesture of appeasement, with
the intent behind it that that's the way to pacify radical Islam. Give them
aid, appease them, abstain from criticising their religion, let them build
their mosques, let them have their way, and pretty soon they'll see that we're
good, they'll see things our way. And nine years after 9/11, we're seeing
quite the opposite is happening. The more aid that's given to Pakistan, for
instance, the more it disintegrates, the more radical it becomes - in fact,
those monies are used to radicalise, and to continue what according to Islamists
is their value system - they believe in it, it's a conviction [about] their
civilisation.
Next year, a decade after 9/11, this is my
prediction - people will go back and say Samuel Huntington was right. I think
there's going to be a paradigm shift very soon.
Q.: Do you believe in the clash of civilisations?
A.: Yes. Huntington's hypothesis, as far as it relates to Islam, has been
chillingly accurate.
Q.: How do you compare Europe's appeasement
of Muslims to the situation in America?
A.: The difference is that income and education levels of American Muslims
are higher on average than those in Europe. But still, there is a trend of
radicalisation and jihadisation in the US, manifesting itself in the number
of Islamic centres that are being built. Saudi Arabia and Gulf states like
the Emirates and Kuwait are putting a lot of money into campuses to propagate
the idea that Islam is peace, at one with the West, etc. Meanwhile, they're
using those campuses to radicalise young, highly educated and potentially
high-income students into the most radical, most Wahabist version of Islam.
Within radical Islam there're two groups.
One believes in violent means. Someone like Tariq Ramadan believes in gradualism
- achieving your goals through democratic means, using freedoms to get rid
of freedoms. I think that al Qaeda will continue to use violence, and that
is Islam's suicide. When you have more and more [such things] - like the Nigerian
who filled his underwear with explosives - that's going to wake Americans
and Europeans up. And I hope it wakes them up not only to the al Qaeda-like
violence, but also to the gradualists.
Q.: Would you like to settle again in Europe?
A.: No. I'll go back on visits and books tours, but I've settled in the United
States. I feel safer there. I'm also tired. I've been a nomad all my life
(laughs). I'm tired of moving from one place to the next. I'm 40 years old.
It's just good to have a home base, and when it comes to maximum freedom and
security and finding a balance between those, and a job I love with an organisation
that's really been wonderful to me, then I have it all.
