Author: Maneesh Chhibber
Publication: The Indian Express
Date: August 14, 2011
URL: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/the-pm-could-have-taken-a-stand-but-he-never-stands-up-against-any-wrongdoing/831638/0
Shanta Kumar, BJP vice-president and former
chief minister of Himachal Pradesh, answers questions on the Lokpal Bill and
Karnataka politics and says "politics is increasingly becoming irrelevant".
This session was moderated by Assistant Editor Maneesh Chhibber
Maneesh Chibber: Corruption has become a big
issue, but it's an issue in most NDA-ruled states as well. Would you like
to comment?
Shanta Kumar: Corruption, like an epidemic,
has spread across the whole country. But I feel there was never this high
a level of corruption in the history of India. It has now spread in such a
way that no one remains unaffected by it. BJP is aware of the issue--a recent
conference in Delhi of chief ministers of BJP-ruled states discussed the issue.
The resolution passed during the conference had two very important points:
one, that we will not just fight corruption spreading across the country but
also indulge in self-introspection. Second, BJP takes it upon itself to to
make India a corruption-free country.
Coomi Kapoor: But in Karnataka, your chief
minister had to go on corruption charges. Corruption is not the only issue
that is affecting BJP. The BJP fought against dynastic rules, but you have
your own dynasties--even in your home state, Himachal Pradesh.
Shanta Kumar: These things are a great hindrance
to democracy. When the pollution of corruption spreads, some areas can remain
unaffected for a while but the pollution will spread sooner or later. We came
into politics as a party with a difference. I think every party has good people
who are not corrupt. BJP recognises the problem and we have said so in our
resolution. We are trying our best to act on issues like corruption and dynasty
rule. We need to accept that corruption and dynasty rule are inter-related.
It essentially turns out to be corruption in and by one family. Even in Karnataka,
unfortunately, the family of the chief minister indulged in wrongdoing. So
the mixing of political power and dynasty rule certainly leads to corruption.
Our party is aware of this and is trying to distance itself from the problem.
Unni Rajen Shanker: You are associated with
the Karnataka unit of the party, but did you raise the issue of corruption
there with the party high command? What was the reaction?
Shanta Kumar: When I was associated with
the Karnataka unit, I had told the high command. But you have to understand
there are weaknesses in politics and power, and that's the reason why timely
action could not be taken. When the Lokayukta reports came out, immediate
action was taken, and I totally accept that there was a delay in taking action.
Pradeep Kaushal: You had raised the issue
of Narendra Modi's handling of the 2002 riots in Gujarat at the Goa party
meeting. What was the party's response to it?
Shanta Kumar: Whatever I said was repeated
by the then Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee, namely that 'raj dharma'
should have been safeguarded and maintained. I said what I felt was right
in that situation and continue to believe that I said the right thing.
Pradeep Kaushal: What was the party response
to it? Shanta Kumar: Generally, those who tell the truth stand alone and I
have stood alone many times. I have stood alone many times in Himachal Pradesh
too. When I started the 'no work no pay' scheme in Himachal, I was all alone.
When we lost the elections after that, many people said it was because of
the scheme. If you lose elections for doing good work, then it is much more
important than victory. I have paid heavy price for doing good work, I have
been isolated, but I have no regrets.
Pradeep Kaushal: You played a significant
role in cleaning up the party organisation in Punjab. Will this help you in
the forthcoming elections?
Shanta Kumar: Definitely. We tried to improve
things in Punjab and a positive message has gone to party workers and the
people as well. I think that would prove useful in Punjab where we are coming
closer to victory.
Maneesh Chibber: There are six months left
for elections in Punjab, how many seats do you think you can win?
Shanta Kumar: There are two things in Punjab.
One, there is coalition government working well, a lot of development work
has taken place. The public outrage over corruption by the Congress will have
an effect everywhere and they'll have to pay for it. So this factor will definitely
go against the Congress in Punjab too where we are doing very well. How many
seats exactly will be ours is hard to calculate at this point but our coalition
will definitely win.
Raj Kamal Jha: What's the biggest mistake
you think Dr Manmohan Singh has made?
Shanta Kumar: What mistake did he not make?
What could have favoured him the most was the fact that he was never a so-called
politician. His image was always good. But he could not perform the duties
of his position well. What's the point of honesty if you are surrounded by
corruption from all sides? He could have taken a stand but he never stands
up against any wrongdoing. The party is full of corruption, CAG's CWG report
tells us how, right under the nose of the Government of India, so much happened
in Delhi. The PM is only watching the drama as the country goes bankrupt--the
rich are growing richer while the poor are growing poorer. I was at the UN
convention against corruption where Switzerland said everyone should to take
back the 'stolen money' in their banks but we are not even demanding the return
of the money.
Manoj CG: The issue of black money is an old
one. Before 2004, the NDA government was in power for six years and we never
saw an attempt to bring back black money.
Shanta Kumar: One reason is that black money
is not in just one country. Further, the United Nations Convention Against
Corruption was not there during the NDA government and there was no other
avenue. If it had been available then, we would have definitely tried to bring
back the money. We now have an international legal way to bring back the money.
USA did a wonderful job by passing a law. Under that law, they could sue the
biggest bank of Switzerland and the case was so strong that the USB Bank went
for an out-of-court settlement and paid $780 billion as penalty and gave the
names of 19,000 American account holders. Why are we not asking for something
similar? Spain has got back its money and more and more countries are doing
the same. What kind of PM have we who is not taking any action on this issue?
Seema Upadhyay (teacher, Cambridge School,
Indirapuram): If you were the PM tomorrow and if most of your leaders were
accused of wrongdoing, what would you do?
Shanta Kumar: Whatever has to be done as
per law would be done. The rule of law should be the same for everyone, irrespective
of party lines. I have never sided with corruption and I feel it is the country's
biggest enemy. Corruption is what leads to more poverty for some and riches
for others. There should be zero tolerance for corruption.
Coomi Kapoor: You say the government's popularity
is low because of corruption and bad administration. But why is it that the
BJP, which is the main Opposition, has not benefited?
Shanta Kumar: We are trying to spread the
message across the country by way of demonstrations. The entire body politic
is off track right now, it is increasingly becoming irrelevant. When Anna
Hazare held his fast, the whole country stood up for him. He insisted no politician
should go near him. The first committee on the Lokpal Bill that the government
was forced to constitute had no representative of any political party. I told
Advaniji that we seriously need to introspect because politics is increasingly
becoming irrelevant and people are fast losing faith. We all are responsible
for such a devolution which is very dangerous for the country. We are thinking
about this seriously because if the people don't have faith in their leaders,
there will be no faith left in democracy.
Manoj C G: Your party played second fiddle
to Anna Hazare. Was the strategy wrong?
Shanta Kumar: We must support those who raise
their voices against corruption. Technically speaking, the Supreme Court's
monitoring of investigations into the 2G scam is not the judiciary's job.
Similarly, what should have been done by political groups is now being done
by civil society. I consider it a failure of politics that the Lokpal Bill
could not be passed for 40 years. Being a politician, I am seriously thinking
about this failure of politics and all politicians should do that too.
Pradeep Kaushal: Karnataka BJP MLAs elected
their leader by a secret ballot. Will this practice continue?
Shanta Kumar: The attempt is to do it by
consensus. It is better that way.
Maneesh Chhibber: Is BJP feeling the absence
of A B Vajpayee?
Shanta Kumar: Yes, definitely. Vajpayeeji
is missed a lot. He had his own very fresh and different perspective that
the party misses the most. But other leaders in the party are trying to fill
the void.
Coomi Kapoor: Is it a weakness of your party
that you don't have a single strong leader to compare to the Congress leaders?
Shanta Kumar: We cannot compete with the
Congress that has concentrated power in just one family. In our party, we
sit together and discuss and take collective decisions, so we are more democratic.
But in that party, all decisions and rulings come for just one person. The
discussion in Parliament on CWG is interesting. How was Kalmadi appointed?
The PM overruled everyone to appoint Kalmadi. In his own letter, Kalmadi has
clearly stated that he had a long discussion with Sonia Gandhi regarding his
appointment. So all good decisions were overruled because Sonia Gandhi had
a say.
P Vaidyanathan Iyer: Finance Minister Pranab
Mukherjee often tells the corporate sector in public forums that all the bills
that get stuck should be dealt by convincing the Opposition. Is there a total
breakdown of communication between the government and the Opposition?
Shanta Kumar: The ruling government and the
Opposition should sit together and talk--an atmosphere should be created for
this.
Monojit Majumdar: Looking at the next elections,
what are the one or two things BJP should do to turn the situation to their
advantage?
Shanta Kumar: If there is one thing India
and its citizens are most disturbed by, it is the price rise and the increasing
disparity between the rich and the poor. The main reason for these is corruption.
It has become a big issue now and the BJP will make this its main agenda item.
Meanwhile, foreign banks are keeping all the money stolen from our country.
I want to tell people that once our government comes to power, the first thing
we'll do is to try and bring back the stolen money. We'll make a law which
will have four main points: depositing money in any foreign bank will be criminal
and the minimum punishment will be 10 years in jail. The offence will be non-bailable.
Within six months of making the law, names of those who declare their black
money will be kept secret and they will not face criminal action--when their
black money comes back to India, one portion will be given to them and the
rest will be deposited in the government treasury. The names of those who
inform us about other people's money in banks will also be kept secret and
they will get a cash reward of Rs 50 lakh from the government. Then we'll
give a month's notice to the 100-200 people we know about and later put them
in jail.
Kaushal Shroff (Express Institute of Media
Studies): Don't you think bringing the PM and the higher judiciary under the
ambit of Lokpal would be corrosive of the executive powers?
Shanta Kumar: This Bill has been presented
at least 3-4 times before. It included the PM when we had presented the Bill.
Even when the Congress presented the Bill earlier, the PM came under the ambit
of the Lokpal. If today our PM is so honest, then why is he not under the
ambit of the Bill? Why should such a criminal PM not come under the ambit
of the Lokpal? For the judiciary, the government is thinking of something
other than the Lokpal, so that is alright. But no one should be above the
law.
Manoj C G: In Karnataka, you removed BS Yeddyurappa,
but he managed to instal a confidante as successor. How can you take a high
moral ground when the man who has been removed micro manages things?
Shanta Kumar: The new chief minister of Karnataka
has a very good image. When a consensus could not be reached, then the decision
was taken through votes. There is no other way in a democracy.
Sharmishta Shastri (student, Cambridge School,
Indirapuram): If there are elections tomorrow, who would be BJP's prime ministerial
candidate?
Shanta Kumar: We do not decide before hand.
Once elections occur, the elected members decide who should be the chief minister.
Similarly, MPs will decide who will be the prime minister. But there is already
talk of pre-deciding the candidates. So we may decide closer to the elections.
Bhavna Vats (EXIMS): The PPP model is seen
as a successful one in the implementation of projects. How do you see this
model since you initiated projects in Himachal Pradesh under the model?
Shanta Kumar: I feel development is the responsibility
of the entire society and not just the government. When I was made chief minister
of Himachal Pradesh, I wanted to do my best for development but there was
never any money. Then I realised our water could produce electricity. I asked
Morarji Desai, the then prime minister, for money. He said there was not enough
money. So I told him we could involve the private sector to produce power.
He wasn't convinced. In Mandi in HP, there were three such companies that
made power, so I tried to convince him to involve the private sector. I was
turned down. I was made chief minister in 1990 again and the first cabinet
resolution I made was to invite the private sector into power generation.
I am grateful to Dr Manmohan Singh who was the finance minister for the amendments
in the Electricity Act that gave projects to the private sector. He asked
me to speak to Atal ji and Advani ji and said amendment would be brought about
within a month. It happened and we saw the first hydel power project involving
the private sector in the history of India in Himachal Pradesh. The government
should govern and the rest can be handled by others. There is so much power
in Himachal Pradesh that we have surplus power. And at the pace we are going
I think HP alone could fulfill the power shortage of the entire nation.
Bhavna Vats: Are there any disadvantages of
PPP in implementation?
Shanta Kumar: There is. Privatisation has
led to exploitation. If there is privatisation, the government must regulate
it. I am the Chairman of the Standing Committee on Commerce and our subject
last year was the performance of the cement industry. The loot in the cement
industry is frightening--there is absolutely no control. We have recommended
a regulatory authority for the cement industry. There is greater exploitation
in the medicine industry with privatisation. So it is important to have regulation
and control. So while privatisation is good, the government should not give
these private players a free hand to loot the country.
- Transcribed by Geeta Gupta, For longer text,
visit www.indianexpress.com
